INVENTION Interview: Filmmakers Courtney Stephens and Callie Hernandez on Their Multifaceted New Film

In his review of Invention, the new film from writer/director Courtney Stephens and actor/writer Callie Hernandez, Martin Kudlac discusses the many ways it explores the lines between reality and fantasy, and how those lines are oddly similar in grief and conspiracy theories.

It's a review that makes you want to see the film not only to luxuriate in a beautiful and thoughtful piece of art, but also so that you can talk about it, because there's so much to talk about. Thus, I was thrilled to have the opportunity to talk about the film with its creators and dive a little deeper with them on the many, many fascinating aspects of their unique film.

[The film will be opening in New York at Metrograph theater on Friday, April 18, and will stream exclusively on MUBI in North America this summer. It will also be opening theatrically in London at the Institute of Contemporary Arts (ICA) in their Off-Circuit programme later this year.]

[The interview has been edited for length and clarity.]

Screen Anarchy: The first thing that I was struck by is the look of the film. The very beautiful, soft 16mm. And I was curious, since you all knew you were going to be working with tapes, was it a choice in terms of contrast that you wanted that film-to-tape contrast as opposed to a digital-to-tape contrast?

Courtney Stephens: Yeah, I think exactly that. I think we wanted that contrast of worlds. But also, I think now we experience digital filming as like "the real" and I am interested in the idea that celluloid has this quality that now, like in our sort of TikTok world, is a more sober space than digital TV affect space. So I mean, yes and then I also think it kind of goes both ways, where there's a slowing down that happens in celluloid that can actually feel like a way of accessing a real and less chaotic, I don't know...

Callie Hernandez: And our DP really wanted to shoot in film.

[laughter]

Courtney Stephens: He said he would do it for free if we shot on film. So we did.

That helps make the decision. So Courtney, what was it like directing Callie, as she's playing a version of herself? I know you've done a lot of non-fiction work. And here you're not exactly working with her as a fully fictional character, but you're also not working with her as an interview subject or just capturing someone as they live their life. And then Callie, for you, what was it like finding that balance?

Courtney Stephens: We were finding this film together as we went. So much of what was happening on set was creating situations that were containers for certain kinds of interactions between people that got closer to real kinds of interactions or reenactments of things Callie or I had experienced. And then other things were purely fabricated. And so I would say that in the way that the film actually functions, less as a character study of Carrie [Callie's "character"] and more as a process film of moving through spaces, I would say it was more that.

I think having a background in nonfiction was valuable, just budget-wise, like it was so scrappy. And we were having to make do with what locations we found and the people that were in those locations sometimes, and then to just come up with something that made those real situations interesting and frame them.

So there was a lot of that kind of improvisation, like the kind of improvisation that you do in documentary where you show up to a situation and you're like, 'how do I give this life?' That was definitely part of the process because we weren't shot listing and we had no script. So there was a lot of make believe on the run. So it was useful.

Callie Hernandez: Courtney and I had been talking about this film for almost a year before we did it -- and then went through many, many iterations. We definitely started off with the idea of doing something that was pure fiction together and fully narrative. And then that shifted at a certain point.

I studied doc photography and journalism, and made films before I ever stepped into a studio space as an 'actor.' So narrative and doc are familiar to both of us. Echoing what Courtney said, it was kind of like a sculpture. That's kind of what it felt like, the year long conversational nature of finding the film. And I am a true believer as a filmmaker and as an actor, as whatever in regards to cinema, that the thing will show itself at some point. And it will show you what it wants to be, and then you can either listen to that or not listen to that.

It felt very sculptural as we went along. As Courtney said, we did have a full outline and ideas of what we wanted to do, but we had to pivot. And working with other filmmakers as the actors really helped with that.

Courtney Stephens: They sometimes ran away with their own impulses as well.

Callie Hernandez: Joe Swanberg with that mullet fully formed, you know?

[laughter]

Yeah, Joe's appearance played like a cameo to me. I live in Chicago and if you live in Chicago and go to movies, you see Joe Swanberg around all the time. On that note of working with other filmmakers, was that always something that y'all had wanted to do? And then, if so, did y'all have these filmmakers in mind?

Courtney Stephens: I wouldn't say it was a conceptual move. But these are people we know. They obviously each have their own angle on the metafictional form. And in interesting ways, I think they are in their scenes, refracting off the kinds of films they make. I mean, certainly, James [N. Kienitz Wilkins's] scene was the only really scripted scene.

Callie Hernandez: It turned out that his mom literally does exactly what he was doing in the film [acting as an estate executor].

[laughter]

He had some knowledge.

Callie Hernandez: Yes, yes. We didn't seek out filmmakers, but we're both used to working within limitations and they just presented themselves at the right time, right place and garnered something else extra special to the film.

Courtney Stephens: There were four male actors who all have directed their own films, and I think they're people who are aware of the kind of slippery space between self performance and self. And that worked with the themes that we were dealing with. I think some of that kind of subtle performance of one's own self was part of the personal myth-making aspect that we're interested in.

I have been a fan of yours [Callie] for a while. 2018 was probably the "oh, this person keeps popping up in stuff I like" year. And the two big ones that year for me were UNDER THE SILVER LAKE and THE ENDLESS. And they feel like these movies about people selling answers, so [INVENTION] feels like it fits with that, kind of as a piece. Were you seeking out stories like that consciously?

Callie Hernandez: Probably. I feel like it is kind of coincidental. Like, yes, throughout my quote unquote career I gravitated towards weirder projects. I don't know, both of those just immediately felt right when they came into my lap and didn't feel too far fetched.

And it probably is a little bit like this film. You start to become in it and then something becomes like a medium. You yourself become a medium, the film itself, the medium [of film] becomes a medium of psychic energy or something, Not to sound super woo woo because I'm actually really not. But, you know, things do start to come toward and attract and find each other in this really unique way. And I was just very lucky to be right place, right time.

Off of the medium thing, if film is an analogue for conspiracy, in terms of telling stories that require belief, are the meta-elements that y'all include, those moments of conversation about "oh, we're making an improvised film" and things like that, are those clues that the conspiracy may not be real? Or are they clues that this is a conspiracy that these people are creating?

Courtney Stephens: I have to draw that on a piece of paper.

[laughter]

Callie Hernandez: Meta on meta on meta. [pause] Court, you go.

Courtney Stephens: [laughs] Okay. It's like how does the puzzle work? And I don't know, I would have to think more about it. But I think the meta elements are the evidence of what's behind any act of conjuring.

Like, what is this perverse thing that makes us want to just make up stories and live inside of them? In terms of making movies I mean, in terms of this strange art form. I think the pull aways, the kind of behind the scenes stuff, for me is where the stakes of what we're up to are being acknowledged. And sometimes even not, sometimes there's just a kind of sweetness of revealing the community nature of making something up together and finding people to do that with.

Callie Hernandez: It was something that we talked about a lot, like conspiracy as a form and as like a vessel for grief, which I can elaborate on in a long winded way. But I ask myself that all the time.

There's that famous -- ironically, while we were at Locarno [in 2024 premiering the film], the wonderful Gena Rowlands passed -- and there was this clip [from Minnie and Moskowitz] recirculating, where she says "film really is a conspiracy." And it was ironic timing.

You know all these things, sometimes you can find meaning when there is none, but sometimes it's just sort of like, "okay, what's going on? Where's the thread?" But we were always excited about examining where conspiracy comes from. And through myriad experiences of shooting the film, and conversations, and ideas, it was really an investigation and seeing what that means. And holding the opposites, not to sound Jungian, but it doesn't really matter whether or not it's true. It's "why are these being sought out as a good medium?"

Yeah, conspiracy as its own vessel was always something that we talked about.

I do think there were some very pivotal moments while we were shooting that things started to click. Why conspiracy and grief seem to go so hand in hand even in our unconscious minds, Courtney and I were talking about it because we were trying to get at something, but we weren't [sure what].

We were investigating and exploring and experimenting. And I think there is a sense of hopelessness and hope, they're sort of the same, two sides of the same coin in a really weird way, a reaction. You know, this reality that you're experiencing, you just so desperately want it to not be true. And sometimes conspiracies are just there as a reaction, because what's being sold to you should be questioned, like all these medical, capitalistic systems in place that bring about alternative answers and alternative solutions, alternative medicine, etc.

We didn't want to make an "I hate daddy" movie, that wasn't at all what either of us felt or were interested in. Or a political film, like my dad died from COVID and that was something we really didn't want to bring into this because of what could be taken from that or what direction it could be taken. Because it was always going to be about a feeling and questions and "why" rather than "what."

Courtney Stephens: I find this a lot within myself, just on a human level, that maintaining possibility for me is like a certain kind of comfort. Maintaining possibility of an escape route or "maybe, actually, things are entirely different [from] how I'm seeing them now." It's this way of being able to protect yourself from the harshness of certain realities.

Callie Hernandez: It's the basis of innovation. It's the basis of invention.

Courtney Stephens: Yeah, like saying, "things are what they are, but they could be different." So that same spirit of not just taking reality as formed. And it's a real American myth. We hold that up in this culture, this idea of, of completely rewiring yourself and your persona. All of that stuff, and the kind of dark implications of that.

For both of us, without going too much into our dads and who they were in real life, I feel about my own dad that he was a real dreamer. And he gave me that also, it was a total gift. And it was also really hard to get a clear picture of reality in certain ways. But I also see that as having been very childlike in ways that formed me and were lovely. So I think we were hoping to swim in both of those kinds of waters.

Callie Hernandez: A sentiment Courtney and I really shared from the get go, which is why I think we wanted to make this film together.

Courtney, given that Callie's father is in it, when you were making it, how did you think about, relate to, create this as a movie about your father?

Courtney Stephens: I don't know that I would say this film is about my father. But there was this question of having different people talk about your father and what that feels like after your father is gone. And I had this experience after my dad died, where he ... he was like an entrepreneur and he was involved in lots of weird business schemes. And when he died, there was an outstanding business that had a lot of really angry investors.

So my brother and I went to where he lived in Phoenix to sort out his affairs and whatever. And we ended up being able to secretly listen in on this phone call with all these investors. And they had called this meeting to talk about, "what should we do now that Ron is gone? What's going to happen with our investments?"

And we were on this call and it's so masochistic to be on it. But we were trying to understand what was going to happen. I'll spare you the whole story. But it was listening to them call him a crook and be angry with him and say all this terrible stuff.

That was actually a scene at some point, "oh, maybe there'll be this investor call." So I think that feeling of somebody who's a disappointment to other people and you feel protective of him. But at the same time, your conviction is a different kind of conviction than, "they're wrong." It's the conviction of "I love this person." And that is a different thread of thinking through what is truth and what is false. Like loyalty and those kinds of things.

I was thinking about that and my dad was definitely like a salesman who was selling people on ideas and that kind of stuff. So there's some of that, obviously, in the film.

Callie Hernandez: I think Courtney and I had very similar archetypal dads. My dad was not an inventor, but it's very similar to ... as Courtney is saying this, I've never heard her say this before. And I'm like, "wow, you never talked about that particular moment, because it's so familiar."

But yeah, dealing with the devastation and the disappointment and then your own loyalty being questioned. That's a wild ride to be on with someone you love.

I know you have done a decent amount of press. Is there anything that y'all haven't been able to talk about yet that you want to say about the film, working together, dead dads, et cetera?

Courtney Stephens: For some reason, RFK [Robert F. Kennedy Jr.] came to mind, even though we have talked about RFK. [laughter] I don't know, Callie, do you have something better than that? I have weird thoughts about RFK.

I had a question about the "crunchy to alt-right pipeline" that I nixed.

Callie Hernandez: There's a lot, we could open that can of worms and I could talk about that all day, and I'm sure Courtney could too. It's so convoluted and is a really interesting landscape to investigate.

Courtney Stephens: I'm in Switzerland at the Visions du Réel documentary festival, and I saw this film yesterday called Soldiers of Light, and it's about Nazi vegans. It's about these German vegans who are really QAnon adjacent, talking about adrenochrome, and it's like the same discourse.

But what I realized watching this film was the narratives of purity, whether they come through healthcare or whether they come through the Third Reich are so dangerous. I was thinking about that with alternative health, that so often there's this idea of being purer than others, or wanting to purify.

And this cleaning is sort of a correct impulse, like you're trying to heal yourself. But oh my God, it so quickly turns into a tyrannical impulse, and I was thinking about that. I was also kind of relieved, like "oh, the Germans are as fucked as we are."

Callie Hernandez: As I'm listening to this, and the idea of purity, it's the idea of "return to oneself, return to the original." And that's also just so reminiscent of grief, it's "return to what was, what once was that no longer is" And it actually made me emotional when you were talking about it.

Because you can't go back, whatever it is, like you were talking about, the vegan Nazis, it doesn't really matter. It all comes from the same essence of this irreversibility.

Courtney Stephens: In this film [Soldiers of Light], it's this similar national thing, they're Holocaust deniers, they want to undo this thing, they don't want it to have happened. And so there's that reaching for the primeval, foundational Germany. Like the foundational America that we're tugging at a little bit in our film.

Visit Courtney Stephens' official site for more information.